Ice Dam Issues Revisited / Flathead trip –Cosmography101-29.1 w/ Randall Carlson ‘08

Published by Darron Toy on

well yeah it was really a good trip I thought we went to Glacier Park never heard of Glacier National Park who's been to Glacier National Park they're pretty small they're small they're smaller than they were during the Ice Age I can tell you that much in fact they're smaller than they were during the Little Ice Age yeah and then we went on a geologists guided field trip on set to Saturday week Oh Saturday right would have been in week ago Saturday so there was four or five geologists involved did I know of several of them that I had met before the year before and I didn't learn anything that I thought contradicted the alternative hypothesis that I'm hoping to submit to somebody here real soon the one that you guys should be familiar with right in fact out of the whole world out there you guys are the first ones to actually hear in detail this alternative hypothesis so what is the alternative hypothesis anyway well this is a test to see who's been paying attention and who hasn't oh well we the one relative to the field trip we went up and did a circuit around Flathead Lake which is the largest what is it Brad the largest thank you largest naturally impounded freshwater lake west of the Mississippi so it doesn't include the Great Lakes so I guess that would only what only the Great Lakes would be ahead of it right so it's it's left over because where it was was a big lobe of ice and it would have been at the northern end of Lake Missoula and so we're in – two years passed I've shown you guys pictures of part of that area and in fact whatever two months ago when I did a presentation I showed you the fly pictures that we had taken from last summer and one of the things that we had done there was documented evidence that's totally contradicts the prevailing theory that there was this big ice dam yes exactly exactly dannis dam you get a double Goldstar man's been paying attention but even think about that if you've got if you've got a mile thick sheet of ice and you've got water that's getting all the way to the base of it only under the force of gravity atmospheric pressure try to imagine when we were driving on our way down here we commented to Jeremy as we're looking at the skyline of Atlanta the tallest building in Atlanta is that what is it the BankAmerica building you know with the lid up top and the towel that's a 1060 seven feet okay next time you're driving you got a good you're not too far from downtown take a look at that building because that building is only half its height is only half the depth of Lake Missoula behind the ice dam you can't see you're talking about there a body of water 2,100 feet deep now at the at the bottom of that water column you've got a pressure of almost a half a ton per square inch now what Dennis was just saying is you know when they start talking about glaciers apart from this ice dam theory they'll sure I mean they'll say right out yeah you water that's it that melts on the surface of the glacier and then could trickle all the way to the base of the glacier if even though it might be a mile thick just under the force of gravity alone and then there's basal melting meltwater on the bottom of the glacier that the glacier glides on so the whole point is that when you begin to think through the process it doesn't hold up it doesn't make sense and yet when you begin to talk to some of the geologists well what you'll see is that any computer modeling's that they've done this is what one of them one of the most sophisticated computer modeling's of the whole ice dam scenario that they've done so far involves the ice being there 24 to 25 hundred feet thick the water fills up and when it hits 2,100 feet it's at about 90% the the depth of the ice and because the ice is roughly 90% the density of water once the water hits that level it would then cause the ice to become buoyant and so in their computer models the ice is there 2,500 feet thick the water raises up it hits 2,100 when it hits 2,100 the water pressure is now great enough to cause the whole ice dam to lift up and then the water goes out that's one of the that's one of the variations that they've got on it but the assumption there of course is that you've got this completely completely impermeable ice mask if you actually look at a map of where the ice dam was supposed to be the bottom of the valley is five miles wide at the top where the where the ice and the water would meet at the forty 200-foot above sea level that's seven miles wide so you can picture you've got what they call the wetted perimeter the perimeter of where the seal has to be is going to be somewhere around seven or miles or more where it has to be a perfect seal where no water can penetrate through that ice at all none at all because if any goods through the whole ice dam is gone now there are oh hang on one second I'll get there are ice dams in the modern world that that have been observed several hundred of them over the last couple hundred years what you see when you watch those when you observe those and document those is typically you will get a volume of water that varies between one and two cubic miles maximum the volume of Lake Missoula was five hundred and thirty cubic miles and you get three orders of magnitude the biggest known outburst flood from from a glacially dammed Lake was the hubbard glacier when it gave way in alaska and that the big that's the largest known and it actually is quite a bit bigger than all of the other ones known but typically even the largest known one is three orders of magnitude less then one of the peak flows from Missoula flood so in other words three orders of magnitude would be a thousand times bigger so in other words the largest known peak discharge from a modern ice dam blake breaking through its glacier is one thousandth of the volume of a lake Missoula flow so is it reasonable to just jump from there to this idea that we'll see here's the problem once you lose that ice dam then what do you do obviously there was a great flood a flood of epic proportions a flood that you can't even begin to imagine until you've spent ten years traveling back and forth across that landscape putting putting it together in your mind at that point you might actually begin to get a sense of what we're actually talking about here we're talking about a flood that's of of such power that it's virtually inconceivable but if you take the ice dam out of the equation then what have you got Dennis what were you trying to say well I let's say there was a report yesterday that somebody I haven't read it yet somebody told me about it saying that Iceland is prematurely cold this year and was really cold last year and they're afraid that Iceland is going to be one of its coldest years in years one of those coldest winters in years let me tell you we would much rather have a little bit of global warming then then going into a little ice age Charles what were you gonna say you know I haven't brought out the fact that that much pressure would create the ice to melt yeah yeah the pressure at the bottom of Elsa family mountain because of it no I remember any of them on that list we printed out playin over mm right crater lake in the crater lake is the deepest lake and it might be that deep but you know think about that here you're talking about lakes that are being held in totally by bedrock you know by bedrock so here we're a lake that's deep or deeper than any any lake in North America and it's supposed to be held in by ice and yeah I mean really if you follow the current thinking not only was there wasn't just one ice dam there up now to saying there was 89 ice dams well you know what it's like it reminds me of the the Ptolemaic model of the solar system you remember that from school they were trying to explain retrogression what do you call retro retrograde motion of planets by putting everything in circular orbits and circular orbits were close but not quite and so what happened was in order to to actually make a work they had to use efforts and epicycles and epicycles and it got more and more and more and more complex and unwieldy I remember an astronomy class is an extra-credit project we were supposed to try to explain the Ptolemaic model so I took that on and I just remember it was I mean it was come you know that any scientific law they say a good scientific law is simple you know that's one of the rules of science keep it simple well then of course Kepler came along and just realized well instead of trying to explain all this motion by circles perfect circles with the earth at the center put the Sun at the center and make the perfect circle slightly flattened and make them ellipses and boom all of that complex stuff just went off the table and he came up with three simple laws they're called Kepler's laws and and from that point on suddenly astronomy just took leaps and bounds forward you know it it was the the progress of astronomy it had been retarded for over a millennium because of this unwieldy complex Ptolemaic model somebody needs to come up with a much simpler model one person who gets it yeah that's where it starts it starts with somebody proposing an alternative having everybody object to them but just like that guy see what's what's really instructive about what you did is that like you said using the word religion because it's not it's with them it's for him to invoke that ice dam is a matter of faith it's not because he sat down and reasoned through it because if he had he'd go wait a second something something's not you know 2 & 2 isn't adding up here you know there is actually though a dissenting point of view that is emerging that is totally much more supportive of the model I've been proposing which is a group of Canadian geologists who are saying the evidence the field evidence is supportive of the idea that there were massive water flows coming out of Canada and I've already begun to saying haven't you begun to detect this Brad that there's almost a it's almost like us versus them mindset oh that's the Canadian so the kaneto Canadians you know those Canadians they want to take credit for the flood I got that 1999 I think or 2000 when we visited the dry falls visitor center and I talked to the geology and geologist and residents there and he wasn't about to concede that there was anything other than this ice damned Lake in the ice dam gave way and when I pointed out some of the work that had already been published by the Canadians back then that was his response oh that's the Canadians wanting to take credit for it you know they they want to get in on the action and in fact this latest computer model thing that you know order out there we had dinner with a geologist and he seemed open in all this and he he was he's with was he bureau land management he was with burek geologist with the Bureau of Land Management and he had helped contribute to the latest computer generated models of the ice dam and he sent me an abstract of this paper that has not yet been published and he says he's gonna send me the full paper when it comes out but one of the things I noticed when I read the abstract was is when they were setting up their their data points in order to create this model computer model they state right in the abstract that their data points they carried them up and stopped at the Canadian border they say that right in the abstract from their wall you know as if you know you know hey guys you know you can't just arbitrarily say that what was going on back in the Ice Age had anything to do with this you know the 49th parallel the Canadian border but that's what they did so as soon as I read that well clearly I think that's gonna buy us the outcome you know I mean how are they gonna come up with anything that suggests there was a Canadian source for the water if they don't even if they just put Candida completely off the radar screen but that's what they were doing so anyways he we had discussion with him and I laid a few things on him and I think he I don't know I'm hoping I plug you know he actually confessed what was the words he used about in the back of his brain remember what do you say yeah he said something like that he actually admitted that much but yeah and the back was mine but I emailed to back some questions about four or five days ago and I haven't heard back from him yet so we'll see Randall laws or somebody else does where it's all getting documented here so well what was your biggest surprise on this trip in terms of new information the biggest surprise was let's see well I guess I don't know if there was any real surprises there was more confirmation you know we got up along the Columbia by Kettle Falls which is about 25 miles south of the Canadian border and we saw hot huge gravel silt bars that obviously had you know had been laid down by sweeping currents you know some currents probably swinging from side to side down the down to Columbia so that was further evidence that there was probably large-scale currents coming out of Canada then of course later seeing that and appreciating how massive the glacier you know when you see that one little corner there and you see these gigantic valleys you can really appreciate how massive the glaciers were during the Ice Age that that was that was instructive to me I thought we made it the gravel bar on the field trip where the young guy was speaking and you got those slope from water coming off the top of the ice right right that was a good jets under down the falls right to the ice level under the lake so you got yeah my oh I have 300 feet deep channels that were scoured and the fault lines and you got massive water flows off the top of the ice all coming south that they weren't seeing the big picture at all no no because the model I've been presenting to you is one where basically there's a very intense thermal source coming from above and outside and I even showed you what a month or two ago where I think the the the ground zeroes were at least one of them the one that would have melted the ice that contributed that that created the Missoula flood and I've also shown you the graphs of sea level change which shows that there were two enormous spikes of meltwater introduced into the Atlantic Ocean and I think that those two spikes of water in other words the sea level rise at the end of the Ice Age wasn't smooth from here to here it was a sudden jump and then another jump so it was like there were two huge spikes of meltwater introduced into the oceans and I think that relates to to melting to catastrophic melting events and if I'm right these catastrophic melting events were triggered by something outside no and that's got to be worked out you see here's the thing is that the first one didn't do it if you remember the first one at twelve thousand nine hundred caused a massive melting the melting flowed out but then everything refroze even colder than it had been in 3,000 years see the younger driest remember the ice age was in a state of warming when the first catastrophe had hit after the first catastrophe hit at twelve thousand nine this was what the beginning of the the climate crisis they called the Younger Dryas when it went back into the depth of full glacial cold the way it had been sixteen seventeen eighteen thousand years ago and that lasted for about a thousand years and then the second catastrophic melting occurred and with that second melting then it it apparently crossed some threshold that at that point the ice age was done with because then what you had was you went from a living ice bath a living ice cap that's being replenished in the zones of accumulation that's moving like plastic taffy outwards in all directions filling mountain valleys you know creating lobes and sub lobes and moving being nourished from above flowing down to a tongue that's then melting at the tongue but after the second catastrophe what happened was it killed the ice sheet everywhere the ice just stopped it was if this nourishment that occurred at the accumulation centers of the ice sheets stopped and now what you had was just huge masses of dead ice laying on the landscape with laying there and then melting away over probably the next 1000 years and it was those that melting I believe that created the subsidiary flooding that the geologists are misinterpreting as being 89 Lake Missoula was because they're not distinguishing between two characters to fully distinct levels of event one is you've got this catastrophic melting boom something hits a huge amount of thermal energy is released hundreds of cubic miles probably even thousands of cubic miles of water are of ice are instantly converted to water that water then begins seeking its shortest route to the ocean and as it does this it creates incredible geomorphic change okay the first time that happens it doesn't kill the ice sheet the ice sheet actually is able to regroup itself and begin growing again the second one takes down the ice sheet after the second one you've now got thousands of square miles covered with this dead ice that's laying there now melting away and I think that's what has happened is the geologists haven't been able to differentiate between the catastrophic melting events and then obviously if you've got thousands of cubic miles of ice laying like from from the Atlantic to the Pacific you know the rocky mountain valleys are filled with thousands of feet of this dead ice it's now melting away presumably greatest melting in the summer right you're going to go through this the seasonal melting it's going to stop in the winter but it begins to melt away and so the geologist I think has failed to differentiate between the two different regimes of melting and see we're still at a complete loss as to what happened the second time that meant that the whole global climate shifted gears the whole global climate shifted gears completely and the ice went away and did not come back in fact it didn't come the the most the ice has come back since the big ice age ended was the Little Ice Age 1300 years 1300 ad when that little ice age started grow the ice started growing the little ice age that was the biggest the glaciers had been in 11,000 years and so you got to keep that in mind when we talk about ice caps disappearing now is we're still seeing the demise of the Little Ice Age ice caps that were the largest they'd been in 10,000 years so but the source of energy that's the thing I want to talk about tonight and I want to get get on to that because today is an auspicious day what day is this what's the date today what's special about that date the the thing that Dennis doesn't want to hear about anymore the Great Chicago Fire happened 137 years ago what time is it let me see it's quarter date yeah so in about another hour and 15 minutes the hit the fan all hell broke loose mrs. O'Leary's cow let me show you something here you might want to see this is this what you're talking about Sam is that her that's the culprit mrs. O'Leary's cow and look there he is kicking over the lantern or she sorry not mrs. O'Leary's bull mrs. O'Leary's cow so what was well mrs. O'Leary's cow let's see here there's mrs. O'Leary's cow with headdress mrs. there's mrs. there's the real mrs. O'Leary's cow what do you know about Hathor the Egyptian goddess what do you know about Hathor you


Mark Newman · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

The ice dam from the Okanogan lobe of the ice sheet blocked off the Columbia River that is fact

Mark Newman · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

And ice dam that went across the Columbia River created Lake Columbia and that overflowed into Grand Coulee so how do you explain that

Mark Newman · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

There is evidence that the flooding happened between 40 and 90 * I could live with Randall's hypothesis happening once but it happened a lot of times

Polymathing · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Thank you for continuing to release this marvelous content! Mr.Carlson you have become my favourite current intellectual to follow due to your overwhelming breadth of knowledge and uncanny ability to convey it with such fluidity and grace. Cross referencing some of these dated videos with current findings and lectures really helps fill some gaps.

Also the visual aids are perfect, kudos to whoever puts them together… Although I will be checking out those audio episodes, there might not be a better speaking voice out there now that Hitchens is gone

B Hamilton · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

More Randall, more!

sluggou812beotch · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Carlson has been right all along. There were never any more than @ 45 floods happen in any one spot. Therefore there were several different sources of water for the floods. About 100 floods made it to the mouth of the Columbia. Check out Nick Zentner. I think he's got the order of the floods and location figured out.

citizenschallengeYT · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

3:10 Dennis fails to consider today we are in a warming world with glaciers quite literally slowly disintegrating and warming migrates through them. Put an ice cube in the frig for a few hours, watch how it'll fracture as warming infuses the block of ice – that's going on today – that's was not the case for those ice damns that occurred during real glacial epochs.
Just say'n.
I thought scientists had calculated at what height of lake water starting making the ice damns buoyant, which led to catastrophic collapses.

Rich kelderhouse · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Are you saying that there was no Missoula lake?

SandCrabNews · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Water pressure per foot of head is 0.43352750192825 psi.
At 2000 feet 867 psi.

scratch · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Wet and wild.


Gang Of Four · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Anything from Randall is always interesting and captivating ! Great video.

Alicia Tucker · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

As a native resident of the Flathead Valley with my own experience in archaeology and geology, i can say I've had many arguments with local geologists and rangers about the Great Lake Missoula hypothesis. I was actually kicked out of a geology class for saying it was a hypothesis and not fact. Even though i used definitions, descriptions and processes presented in class as evidence against ice dams and growth cycles of glacial expansion, the teacher was so stuck on the propagation of the idea that he actually dropped my grade out of spite. There are those here that support ur search for truth. Remember Dogma leaves everyone with their tongues hanging out and their tails wagging. Peace!!

Robert Röhm · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

That’s a tease of an ending!

Keny Charles · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Is it true that there is an underground river (water flow) from Lake Pend Oreille to Coer d'Alene?

Robert Röhm · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

I have missed watching these. Thank you for the upload. 🙏

Drcthru · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

I understand the idea that the Trent-Purcell lobe could not hold 2100 feet of water but he does not deny that Lake Missoula was that deep. Please explain.

Eric Kort · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

randal great video,have you talked about the ancient civalization that was at east central wisconsin before? Aztalan mounds..theres aztalan state park with other ancient civalization housing or it seems to be

DachshundsRule · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

I never thought to really look at Hathor's headdress–looks an awful lot like a meteor or comet, doesn't it? Nice…makes me look at the "Mrs. O'Leary's cow" theory a bit more askance. Great stuff, keep it coming!

Raoul Duke · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

And then….. Zang!! Another inordinately anticipated Randall video. A thousand thank's gentlemen!

Tony G · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Great content as always. 👍

Chuck Thompson · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

There is a YouTube video titled, "Occult Magic, Secrets of the Hidden" and the videos main thumbnail image has drawing/painting of a gentleman that looks uncannily like Randal Carlson. Even the clothing the individual is depicted in in the image is reminiscent of Mr Carlson! Check it out….

Ziggy Dan · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Great stuff!

Mysixofnine · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

All right more Randall! Thanks crew for the post!!

Frequent Flyer · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Yay! Randall's back! Any progress on the feasibility of the ice dam theory? You were saying before that the ice could not have held back such pressurised water.

BoogiePete Photography · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

I love listening to these lectures. Its such a relief to hear a man speak only the truth.

Misty Sowards · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Its sooooooo obvious. The heat and major melting and warming came from below. The earth periodically goes through extreme levels of some intrusions and warms surrounding crust. From bottom up. The glaciers melt from bottom up! And it creates a runaway effect from massive release of carbons and other extreme greenhouse gases. That's humans worst fear. Proven w large igneous provinces. Those are huge plumes that broke all way to surface.

Brian Duncan · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Keep up the good work! The pieces are falling into place.

dlwatib · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Deserves millions of views.

Random Alien · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

Omg what an epic ending to the video!

7munkee · May 14, 2019 at 12:01 pm

I was hoping for an upload this week. Thank you so much for all of these!

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